1181 Drivers Forum

Ok, gang ... so there would be no chance for error or miscommunication, and so I could report to you first-hand, I stopped in to see Neil this afternoon. The checks HAVE been cut. The earnings statement that goes with my check was on his monitor. He also actually had Stacy come down and show me my check, sealed in it's envelope. Take my word ... they're there.

Will they make it to the NLRB by the end of the week? Well, I hope so. There's somewhat of a Mexican standoff between Neil and the union. Neil wants the union to tell the DOE to release his money before he hands over the checks, the union wants Neil to hand over the checks before they give the DOE the okay. (I get the impression neither side trusts the other ... LOL)

I am fairly confident that with the great legal minds each side has working for them (?) they will find a way to resolve this before the week's end.

As always , Thanks for the info Buzz....

Buzz
Thanks for the update. I'm sounds like good news but unfortunately it still seems like games are being played with our money and if what you say is true this time the Union is holding up the process. According to the MOA one of the conditions was "Local 1181 directs DOE in writing to release all funds attached in relationship to this decision". I assumed Michael & the Executive Board would have done this the day after we ratified the MOA. I personally can not understand the logic in not doing this already. The MOA does not state in what order all three conditions had to be met but the way it's written you would think it would be done in order 1,2,3. I'm not just curious, I want my money and as soon as I see Ernie I will ask him why condition #2 hasn't been met yet. Obviously if it was and then Neil did not release the checks conditions 1 & 2 would have been met and he would be in defiance of condition #3 at which point the Local could take appropriate legal action. As always Buzz thanks again.

Furthermore according to the MOA originally the NLRB had nothing to do with releasing the checks their involvement was to waive the interest and calculations of backpay due. Which apparently they have. So unless Local 1181 directed the DOE to release the funds,  Neil would not have to pay us. I'm just venting & trying to make sense of this. Like a said when I see Ernie I will ask because now it seems that the ball is in our court and enough is enough.

You're being critical of the union unjustly, but I understand it's just because I did not fully explain the dichotomy at play here:

Neil does not want to release the checks without being absolutely certain that the union will actually tell the DOE to release his money.

The union does not want to tell the DOE to release Neil's money without being absolutely certain that he will actually release the checks.

Each side is leery of there being any more surprises as this process has been riddled with and does not want to leave anything to chance. I can understand Neil wanting to protect himself, and certainly understand the union wanting to protect us. It does not seem to me that this is a dilemma that can't be easily resolved.

OK Buzz but you're not understanding my point or maybe I'm reading it wrong. You state that "
The union does not want to tell the DOE to release Neil's money without being absolutely certain that he will actually release the checks." That is exactly opposite of what the MOA states. It says all three conditions have to be met before Neil releases the checks. As I said I will ask Ernie when I see him but in the mean time anyone else's input would be appreciated.

One more thing just to make sure I'm understood. I believe in our Union but with regards to this matter (DOE releasing monies) I don't understand it and I looking for answer from my Union.  :yawn:

thanks buzz for getting us the truth its appreciated!!!! and thanks ernie for your best effort for us as always...woodhaven blvd is another story...and neil should have a company meeting and give us his thoughts on the continuing mess of this industry , i thinks it time we give neil a break and listen to both sides of the coin,seems we need to hear his side of all this mess that has been going on ...

This is precisely what is meant by no communication from the UNION. It takes a driver to engage the owner in a conversation and get good information and tell it to the troops rather than hear it from our paid reps.  This info was not made up yesterday.   It may not matter in what way we hear this perplexing  information to some people, but I think we should be kept up to date in a better manner....just my opinion.  Thanks Buzz.    :perplexed:

airbrakes well said...i also think neil isnt a bad guy..woodhaven blvd needs to answer and the master pick mess is not an excuse ....according to this website they took nice raises recently so burn the midnight oil ...

Quote from: PROUD MEMBER on January 15, 2014, 11:38:25 AM
OK Buzz but you're not understanding my point or maybe I'm reading it wrong. You state that "
The union does not want to tell the DOE to release Neil's money without being absolutely certain that he will actually release the checks." That is exactly opposite of what the MOA states. It says all three conditions have to be met before Neil releases the checks. As I said I will ask Ernie when I see him but in the mean time anyone else's input would be appreciated.

By all means DO ask Ernie so that your concern can be addressed to your satisfaction (hopefully).

I think I do understand your point, but what you may be overlooking is that at the time the MOA was written, neither side knew that the NLRB would be throwing a wrench in the works by requesting the checks be delivered to them. Number 2 of the conditions in the MOA states: "Local 1181 directs the NYC Department of Education (DOE) in writing to release all funds attached in relation to the Decision." So, I do agree with you that the way it is written, the union directing the DOE to release the funds does precede the company releasing the checks. At the same time, it is hard for me to fault the union for being cautious (perhaps overly so) on our behalf. Just my opinion.

1181 ... NLRB ... DOE ... It occurs to me that the real problem here may be that we have too many people looking out for our best interest!!!  :rotfl:

Again I will ask Ernie and again I thank you for everything. Not just this matter but all matters since this site was started. Having said that the NLRB did not throw this monkey wrench into the mix until recently. So hopefully Ernie can answer why the Local did not request that the DOE release the money the day or week after we ratified the MOA??

Quote from: PROUD MEMBER on January 15, 2014, 03:38:14 PM
So hopefully Ernie can answer why the Local did not request that the DOE release the money the day or week after we ratified the MOA??

You seem to be intent on making the union the latest villain here, so perhaps Ernie would be the best one to put your mind at ease.

As for myself, I would attribute it to condition #3, that the NLRB approve "the waiver of interest and calculations of back pay" and that payment would be made after "the occurrence of the latest of the above conditions."

I would say the NLRB's approval would be the lastest condition to be met, so the union requesting the release of the money before that would have been premature ... if not totally careless.

But that's just my understanding of it ... maybe Ernie has a different explanation.

Quote from: Buzz on January 15, 2014, 12:41:50 AM
There's somewhat of a Mexican standoff between Neil and the union. Neil wants the union to tell the DOE to release his money before he hands over the checks, the union wants Neil to hand over the checks before they give the DOE the okay.

I am fairly confident that with the great legal minds each side has working for them (?) they will find a way to resolve this before the week's end.

I'm quoting my original post of this thread just to clarify ... I don't want to give anybody the impression that this is an all-out, tooth-and-nail battle between Neil and the union ... it is not. Both are simply trying in earnest to come to an amicable resolution that will best protect their interest. Neither is trying to intentionally delay the process, but both are understandably being very cautious. Although any reason for delay may be frustrating to us, I ... for one ... am grateful the union is giving this such careful scrutiny. There is A LOT of money at stake here. In fact, Neil had to put up the money to pay the taxes that came out of our checks before they could be cut ... which is required when it is over a million. So wanting the release of the money the DOE is holding to help cover the checks is not at all unreasonable, IMHO.

It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario that I still don't think will be all that hard to bring to a timely conclusion.

Quote from: yabba on January 15, 2014, 02:37:01 PM
thanks buzz for getting us the truth its appreciated!!!! and thanks ernie for your best effort for us as always...woodhaven blvd is another story...and neil should have a company meeting and give us his thoughts on the continuing mess of this industry , i thinks it time we give neil a break and listen to both sides of the coin,seems we need to hear his side of all this mess that has been going on ...

You're welcome ... but I'll go one further and say maybe both deserve a break. Here's another truth I can share: Neil himself expressed understanding and even sympathy for the pressure and duress Michael is under. Speaking strictly for myself, I think I should be able to give him at least as much consideration. I don't think any of us can truly fathom what his job has been like since last January.

mine has been hard enough knowing my w2 is coming in 13000.00 + shorter this year then last,i wonder how much there went down..sorry to come off as being harsh but i has enough of the $ullshit and the games...all i know is me you and all the fellow 1181 drivers and escorts are out there doing a professional job for years and still do and are getting the shaft all the way around...and ill bet you my retro check that me you and other drivers and escorts are the only w2s that took at hit...

Two things. I am not calling anybody a villain, I'm just looking for a reasonable answer. Secondly, I personally would not would not give Neil a break. Before before this year I not only thought Neil was a good business man but a good person. My opinion on both has changed. Did he give us a break when he imposed his "Best & Final" offer on us. Which obviously wasn't the best he could offer because 8 months later he gave us a better offer. And still after this current offer in which we took a decrease in pay he still getting the same money from the DOE that he negotiated based on our old contract. And I don't want to here that BS about his compensation costs. That is all figured into his bid before hand.

Quote from: yabba on January 15, 2014, 06:20:55 PM
mine has been hard enough knowing my w2 is coming in 13000.00 + shorter this year then last,i wonder how much there went down..sorry to come off as being harsh but i has enough of the $ullshit and the games...all i know is me you and all the fellow 1181 drivers and escorts are out there doing a professional job for years and still do and are getting the shaft all the way around...and ill bet you my retro check that me you and other drivers and escorts are the only w2s that took at hit...

Yeah, I hear ya' on the money issue ... no argument there.

Quote from: PROUD MEMBER on January 15, 2014, 06:44:18 PM
Two things. I am not calling anybody a villain, I'm just looking for a reasonable answer. Secondly, I personally would not would not give Neil a break. Before before this year I not only thought Neil was a good business man but a good person. My opinion on both has changed. Did he give us a break when he imposed his "Best & Final" offer on us. Which obviously wasn't the best he could offer because 8 months later he gave us a better offer. And still after this current offer in which we took a decrease in pay he still getting the same money from the DOE that he negotiated based on our old contract. And I don't want to here that BS about his compensation costs. That is all figured into his bid before hand.

I'm sure you're not alone in your views.

I spoke to Ernie and he clarified everything. As I assumed Neil not the Union is the "Villain". Either Neil outright lied to Buzz or Buzz misunderstood him (which I doubt). Ernie said "Approximately two weeks ago the Union notified the DOE in writing to release the money." I do not want to quote Ernie any further than that. The bottom line is our attorneys are trying to rectify this situation but regardless if Neil doesn't have the checks delivered to the NLRB by the end of the business day this Friday he will be in defiance.

He was in DEFIANCE the day he cut our pay 7 1/2% END OF STORY!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: PROUD MEMBER on January 15, 2014, 10:05:57 PM
I spoke to Ernie and he clarified everything. As I assumed Neil not the Union is the "Villain". Either Neil outright lied to Buzz or Buzz misunderstood him (which I doubt). Ernie said "Approximately two weeks ago the Union notified the DOE in writing to release the money." I do not want to quote Ernie any further than that. The bottom line is our attorneys are trying to rectify this situation but regardless if Neil doesn't have the checks delivered to the NLRB by the end of the business day this Friday he will be in defiance.

Upon Ernie's suggestion, I called Eddie and yes, the union did send the DOE that letter but the DOE did not release the money, instead they responded with a request that 1181 submit in writing a statement saying that we were paid. Of course, the union would not do that without us actually having been paid, thus the current dilemma. To my way of thinking, Neil did not lie to me, (our conversation was strictly about the cutting of the checks and the reason for the latest delay), and if anybody is the culprit here I'd say it is the DOE. Strictly my opinion.

(It is also still my opinion that an agreement on this will be reached by Friday.)

Buzz the 4000 runs went out for bid correct??? When are they due in??? I understand the money is a big issue but this to me is bigger.. This is are future..

Quote from: Goose623 on January 16, 2014, 03:07:18 AM
Buzz the 4000 runs went out for bid correct??? When are they due in??? I understand the money is a big issue but this to me is bigger.. This is are future..

They are due some time in May ... don't know the exact date. Let's hope they get retracted before then!

(And you're right ... it is bigger. MUCH bigger.)

I've come to the conclusion that discussing the back pay is a moot point. So my final post regarding it will be as far as I'm concerned all 3 conditions were met and Neil should release the checks.  I understand both sides when it comes to the DOE releasing or not releasing the money. But according to the MOA that Neil signed the Local's responsibility was to request the DOE release the money (which we now know they did). No where did it state that Neil making payment was contingent on the DOE's actions after such request was made. It may be a silly & technical point but none the less the truth. We'll see what happens Friday.

Quote from: Buzz on January 16, 2014, 02:59:50 AM

Quote from: PROUD MEMBER on January 15, 2014, 10:05:57 PM
I spoke to Ernie and he clarified everything. As I assumed Neil not the Union is the "Villain". Either Neil outright lied to Buzz or Buzz misunderstood him (which I doubt). Ernie said "Approximately two weeks ago the Union notified the DOE in writing to release the money." I do not want to quote Ernie any further than that. The bottom line is our attorneys are trying to rectify this situation but regardless if Neil doesn't have the checks delivered to the NLRB by the end of the business day this Friday he will be in defiance.

Upon Ernie's suggestion, I called Eddie and yes, the union did send the DOE that letter but the DOE did not release the money, instead they responded with a request that 1181 submit in writing a statement saying that we were paid. Of course, the union would not do that without us actually having been paid, thus the current dilemma. To my way of thinking, Neil did not lie to me, (our conversation was strictly about the cutting of the checks and the reason for the latest delay), and if anybody is the culprit here I'd say it is the DOE. Strictly my opinion.

(It is also still my opinion that an agreement on this will be reached by Friday.)

Apparently the DOE does Not trust Pioneer (Neil) either. If the DOE releases the money and neil doesn't pay us then what??? Now who is playing games? Do you still feel neil should get a break and we should feel sorry for him that he was mislead?

Quote from: WTF on January 16, 2014, 05:20:13 AMApparently the DOE does Not trust Pioneer (Neil) either. If the DOE releases the money and neil doesn't pay us then what??? Now who is playing games? Do you still feel neil should get a break and we should feel sorry for him that he was mislead?

I'll answer your question with a question: Suppose Neil hands over the checks and the DOE doesn't release his money? What then?

So there is another side to the coin, my friend.

(FYI ... they're holding a couple of million, which is needed to cover the checks)

Neil has a contract with the DOE just has we have a contract with him. I would assume just as we took legal action to get our money from him if need be he could take legal action against the DOE. But it would never have to come to that. Once he gave the NLRB the checks and they gave them to us even if 1181 still didn't consent to the DOE that we were paid the cashed checks would be his prove of payment. Again if that doesn't happen and for some reason the DOE still doesn't release the money he can take legal action. The bottom line is the sooner he gives us our money the sooner he gets his. Obviously 2 million (if that # is correct?) is a lot of money. But I'm sure him personally & Pioneer the company do not need that money as much as the $6000 owed me and whatever is owed to my brothers & sisters individually.

Proud me member I glad you did your homework.let's try an remember that niel has not stop lying to us.1 during the strike told that we are in this together then stood with SCUMBAG gat to voted no for beni after sandy and did not care.  2 told us he was so broke because of comp cases.Then goes out gets new buses .3 sign the contract get your money. This whole thing stinks and we pay.That's why we need some kind of job action against this bullshit.I would go to bat for this company if they did things the fare treatment of drivers .Please let's put An end to all of this bullshit! This is why a just don't understand why we don't push back.

All I can say is, of 1181, the NLRB, Neil and the DOE, the DOE is the last one I'd trust with my money! LOL.  ;D

Again I stress the MOA states that Local 1181 directs the DOE to release the funds which the Local did. Before Neil put the MOA before us for ratification he should of included "AND UPON RELEASE OF THOSE FUNDS" but he didn't. So as far as I am concerned HE not US has a problem with the DOE and if the checks aren't in the NLRB's hands by tomorrow he is in defiance. Let's not forget before and during the strike how the DOE stressed how they had a contract with the contractors not us. I not only hope but I believe the checks will be delivered to the NLRB if not by tomorrow by Tuesday the latest.

Not me niel impose a bullshit contract not doe.and he is a out right lyer.Remember how poor ole niel can't afford to pay us but can go out an buy brand new buses and so.e old ones too.He held our money not the DOE. He had insurance for the strike and for comp cases .He is the new gatto.

Far as I'm concerned it was Bloomy and the DOE that started all this shit in motion. They hung us out to dry when they opened the first batch of runs for bid without the EPP last year ... and more (including Pioneer's!) this year. If something doesn't happen before May, and people don't like what they have now, they definitely aren't going to like what they get in 2015, I can guarantee it. Let's hope the current administration does something to make this right or we're all in trouble.

I am with ya on Bloommy but just so disappointed in niel. If you would have told me that this would go this way I would have told you your nuts.  Let's see what happens tomorrow!

BTW ... the YTD amounts in this week's paychecks should reflect the retro money. At least we'll all know how much we're getting.

Quote from: Buzz on January 16, 2014, 10:57:23 AM

Quote from: WTF on January 16, 2014, 05:20:13 AMApparently the DOE does Not trust Pioneer (Neil) either. If the DOE releases the money and neil doesn't pay us then what??? Now who is playing games? Do you still feel neil should get a break and we should feel sorry for him that he was mislead?

I'll answer your question with a question: Suppose Neil hands over the checks and the DOE doesn't release his money? What then?

So there is another side to the coin, my friend.

(FYI ... they're holding a couple of million, which is needed to cover the checks)

like proud member answer he would have to take legal action against the DOE.

Now if neil does send the checks to the NLRB tomorrow,  doesn't that says that HE HOLD OUR MONEY TO THE VERY LAST DAY? Which only confirms what 1 union has been saying and we all know whats true! He has lied to us and "you" again. What break do you want us to give? I know the break he deserves.

FOR REAL! last friday the checks were to be hand delivered to the NLRB.  Is the NLRB no longer involved in giving us our money?   i thought they were supposed to mail it to us.  why does the story keep changing.  this is bullshit plain and simple.  the union doesnt want to trust neil bcz they probably think neil will just keep the money and not pay us which is k now is illegal but at the same time stalling can earn him more interest the longer he keeps the money i wonder how many thousands of dollars in interst he has accrued since last june.  i do know a live check is out there but you know, i cant believe we just keep getting screwed.  every single day they dont give us our money but take everything else contractually legal to benefit them, and the union.  nothing should have been put into play until we got our money in our hands that should have been the deal!  not the other assway around!

the checks were made like buzz said,and they check was taxed basically like a weekly checks plus a few extra tax dollars,but definately not taxed like a lump sum retro check...example i have friends with the city and when they get big retro checks they loose at least 1/2 in taxes we did not... but the light at the end of the tunnel is the checks are written so now we still wait and see what happenes...but on the other hand our easter check was nade in 4-2013 and we never recieved it and it was deducted in 12-2013  ... :perplexed: :perplexed: :perplexed: :perplexed:

Yeah he's got a good point! Easter checks were cut and never distributed! Oh except for the mechanics.  I feel as if its never gonna happen.  This one blames that one back and forth end result we still haven't gotten it.  The union gets paid Neil gets new busses is our money ever coming? Really??

Quote from: WTF on January 16, 2014, 07:37:30 PM
Now if neil does send the checks to the NLRB tomorrow,  doesn't that says that HE HOLD OUR MONEY TO THE VERY LAST DAY? Which only confirms what 1 union has been saying and we all know whats true! He has lied to us and "you" again. What break do you want us to give? I know the break he deserves.

How did he lie? Would you rather he doesn't send them tomorrow?

Tell you what ... if any of you guys seriously don't think you're going to see your money, I've got a deal for ya'.

Tell me what you're owed and I'll give you 50 cents on the dollar. When we do get our checks, you sign yours over to me. If we don't get them, I'll give you the remainder.

Any takers?  ;D

My God I can't wait for this to be over.  The back and forth bickering is unf@$&ING believeable !   Buzz you must be exhausted.    BTW, I did the math on my YTD gross.  I think I'm short a couple of hundred on my back pay.  Any one else ?

Quote from: Rock Steady on January 17, 2014, 02:10:14 AM
My God I can't wait for this to be over.  The back and forth bickering is unf@$&ING believeable !   Buzz you must be exhausted.    BTW, I did the math on my YTD gross.  I think I'm short a couple of hundred on my back pay.  Any one else ?

The earnings statement that comes with the check breaks down each amount owed ... for instance, Easter and summer accruals are separate items, etc. You'll better be able to tell what might be missing. Bound to be some discrepancies.

I'll tell you who would like this never to be over ... the lawyers for both sides. Ka-fu#kin-ching, Ka-fu#kin-ching, baby!

Quote from: Buzz on January 17, 2014, 02:48:15 AM

Quote from: Rock Steady on January 17, 2014, 02:10:14 AM
My God I can't wait for this to be over.  The back and forth bickering is unf@$&ING believeable !   Buzz you must be exhausted.    BTW, I did the math on my YTD gross.  I think I'm short a couple of hundred on my back pay.  Any one else ?

The earnings statement that comes with the check breaks down each amount owed ... for instance, Easter and summer accruals are separate items, etc. You'll better be able to tell what might be missing. Bound to be some discrepancies.

I'll tell you who would like this never to be over ... the lawyers for both sides. Ka-fu#kin-ching, Ka-fu#kin-ching, baby!


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ok do explain to me what's supposed to happen now that the checks are cut? Where do they go from here? What's the procedure that will put these checks in our hands ASAP!! Soon what's the next??  Is inky buzz that saw his check or is everyone's checks cut??

Quote from: wheresmymoney! on January 17, 2014, 04:37:57 AM
ok do explain to me what's supposed to happen now that the checks are cut? Where do they go from here? What's the procedure that will put these checks in our hands ASAP!! Soon what's the next??  Is inky buzz that saw his check or is everyone's checks cut??

Dude, I told you, read through the posts in this thread and you'll have the answers to your questions. I just can't go through every detail yet again. The checks are supposed to go to the NLRB by today, (whether they will or not is in doubt) and they're supposed to mail them to us. Yes, everyone's check was cut.

Let's set a date  I don't care who is bullshitin us no ck by certain date we do nothing but our runs a no cell phones and radio silence with a protest out side pioneer. Let's hit back now 1181 enough we should good faith by doing our jobs .

Quote from: rc1790 on January 17, 2014, 03:57:43 PM
The contract should have been contingent on all aspects being met before any implementation of step freezes, medical increases, etc. A step freeze is nothing less than a pay cut.

That wouldn't have been a bad idea ... approve the contract, but it wouldn't take effect until we got our checks. Oh well ...

Quote from: 1union on January 17, 2014, 01:40:50 PM
Let's set a date  I don't care who is bullshitin us no ck by certain date we do nothing but our runs a no cell phones and radio silence with a protest out side pioneer. Let's hit back now 1181 enough we should good faith by doing our jobs .

never going to happen 1union  .. the scabs are dug in deep,unity is done..

RC great idea but it would cost the city at least double of there current school contract cost..mta has about 1 supervisor for every 5 drivers,thats just the start of the over whelming cost for the city along with benefits and pension,it would be great for us to become part of local 726,lets face it and not forget if it wasnt for danny on day1 of our stike we would have been standing in the rain and snow.